1 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:24,370 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:30,939 --> 00:00:27,890 episode number 383 for the 21st of 4 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:30,949 februari 2016 Richard Saunders here with 5 00:00:38,110 --> 00:00:34,910 you from a secret location a secret 6 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:38,120 location doing some field work that's 7 00:00:42,430 --> 00:00:41,330 why my voice in this episode is going to 8 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:42,440 sound a little bit different it's 9 00:00:48,250 --> 00:00:45,320 because well I'm on location yes I know 10 00:00:50,530 --> 00:00:48,260 it sounds very secretive but just roll 11 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:50,540 with me on this one coming up on this 12 00:00:57,219 --> 00:00:52,129 week's show we're going to be reporting 13 00:00:59,829 --> 00:00:57,229 on the catalyst fiasco now catalyst is 14 00:01:03,450 --> 00:00:59,839 the ABC TV that's the australian 15 00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:03,460 broadcasting corporation our tvs 16 00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:07,100 flagship science show it's been going 17 00:01:11,649 --> 00:01:09,320 for many years and in fact dr. Paul 18 00:01:14,140 --> 00:01:11,659 Willis who you hear frequently from the 19 00:01:16,980 --> 00:01:14,150 Royal Institution of Australia was a 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:16,990 long time reporter on catalyst 21 00:01:27,069 --> 00:01:20,450 unfortunately last week catalyst ran a 22 00:01:29,830 --> 00:01:27,079 an episode called why fried ? which 23 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:29,840 sadly is more or less a scare mongering 24 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:32,810 exercise into the dangers or the 25 00:01:39,819 --> 00:01:35,270 so-called dangers or the trumped-up 26 00:01:43,270 --> 00:01:39,829 dangers of cell phones Wi-Fi this sort 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:43,280 of thing the episode has been roundly 28 00:01:50,559 --> 00:01:48,490 condemned by viewers and experts alike 29 00:01:53,289 --> 00:01:50,569 we're going to be getting to that story 30 00:01:56,410 --> 00:01:53,299 pretty soon at the top of the show also 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:01:56,420 on the show after that it's a radio clip 32 00:02:01,270 --> 00:01:59,450 snip from the BBC featuring michael 33 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:01,280 marshall our good friend Michael 34 00:02:05,379 --> 00:02:03,200 Marshall from the good thinking Society 35 00:02:08,740 --> 00:02:05,389 in the merseyside skeptics now he was 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:08,750 interviewed on BBC merseyside about 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:11,290 homeopathy together with the GP who is 38 00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:16,730 also a practicing homeopath and thanks 39 00:02:21,449 --> 00:02:19,190 to Michael Marshall for alerting me to 40 00:02:24,010 --> 00:02:21,459 this little clip I think you'll enjoy it 41 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:24,020 then to round off the show it's evidence 42 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:26,270 please with Joe alabaster Joe is going 43 00:02:30,250 --> 00:02:28,250 to be reading a report about the north 44 00:02:32,229 --> 00:02:30,260 coast region of New South Wales where a 45 00:02:33,559 --> 00:02:32,239 good friend Heidi Robertson the raw 46 00:02:35,330 --> 00:02:33,569 skeptic from 47 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:35,340 modern rivers vaccination supporters 48 00:02:43,489 --> 00:02:39,030 group is based and in fact the story 49 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:43,499 does even quote her well the crux of the 50 00:02:49,729 --> 00:02:46,790 story is looking at why parents are 51 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:49,739 suspicious of vaccinations and in that 52 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:51,870 part of the world it's a very important 53 00:02:56,119 --> 00:02:53,790 issue thanks to all those people who 54 00:02:58,099 --> 00:02:56,129 read my little interview on The 55 00:03:00,530 --> 00:02:58,109 Huffington Post australia and i'll link 56 00:03:02,659 --> 00:03:00,540 that in the show notes it was well my 57 00:03:05,239 --> 00:03:02,669 tips and advice for any budding 58 00:03:07,909 --> 00:03:05,249 podcaster out there take it or leave it 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:07,919 things that should have worked for me 60 00:03:12,289 --> 00:03:10,530 more or less in the skeptic zone now 61 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:12,299 thanks to all those people who chip in 62 00:03:18,229 --> 00:03:15,209 chip into the skeptic zone via paypal 63 00:03:21,170 --> 00:03:18,239 you can do that at skeptic zone TV a lot 64 00:03:23,869 --> 00:03:21,180 of people chip in 99 cents a week but it 65 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:23,879 all helps it really does it covers the 66 00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:26,609 basic costs of putting the show out and 67 00:03:30,909 --> 00:03:28,799 i hope you enjoy it but now it's time 68 00:03:34,189 --> 00:03:30,919 for me to run to the secret location 69 00:03:36,709 --> 00:03:34,199 covered open it up find some rice 70 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:36,719 crackers munch those well I'm doing that 71 00:03:42,930 --> 00:04:01,930 you 72 00:04:08,030 --> 00:04:05,600 earlier last week abc-tv's catalyst 73 00:04:13,790 --> 00:04:08,040 their flagship science show add a 74 00:04:18,020 --> 00:04:13,800 program called why fried ? all about the 75 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:18,030 supposed dangers of Wi-Fi radiation cell 76 00:04:24,980 --> 00:04:21,450 phone radiation affecting the brain here 77 00:04:34,529 --> 00:04:24,990 is a short clip used at the beginning of 78 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:38,679 you can't see it or hear it but Wi-Fi 79 00:04:45,399 --> 00:04:41,270 blankets our homes our cities and our 80 00:04:47,589 --> 00:04:45,409 schools children today are growing up in 81 00:04:50,409 --> 00:04:47,599 a sea of radio frequency microwave 82 00:04:56,140 --> 00:04:50,419 radiation that did not exist five years 83 00:04:57,969 --> 00:04:56,150 ago our safety agencies dispute that 84 00:05:01,119 --> 00:04:57,979 wireless devices like mobile phones 85 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:01,129 cause harm I don't think it's good 86 00:05:06,429 --> 00:05:03,409 enough to say at the moment that mobile 87 00:05:09,249 --> 00:05:06,439 phone used us cause that's cause cancer 88 00:05:10,629 --> 00:05:09,259 cell phones Amit post radiation edges 89 00:05:13,119 --> 00:05:10,639 but some of the world's leading 90 00:05:15,809 --> 00:05:13,129 scientists and industry insiders are 91 00:05:19,119 --> 00:05:15,819 breaking ranks to warn us of the risks 92 00:05:23,679 --> 00:05:19,129 there is an association between heavy 93 00:05:25,149 --> 00:05:23,689 mobile phone use and brain tumors I've 94 00:05:27,129 --> 00:05:25,159 been in their technology in show my 95 00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:27,139 career and I seen a tremendous benefits 96 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:30,349 the technology can provide my concern is 97 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:33,710 snow buddy can say that it's safe dude 98 00:05:39,490 --> 00:05:36,529 mobile phones cause brain cancer and is 99 00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:39,500 Wi-Fi making us sick in this episode I 100 00:05:43,629 --> 00:05:41,300 investigate the latest research and 101 00:05:49,210 --> 00:05:43,639 advice about the safety of our modern 102 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:52,280 dramatic music scaremongering we might 103 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:54,060 say it's the flavor of the whole show 104 00:05:59,720 --> 00:05:57,930 the whole report now I will add the link 105 00:06:03,080 --> 00:05:59,730 to the video and the transcript the 106 00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:03,090 entire report for you to peruse if you 107 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:05,670 so desire needless to say this report 108 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:07,110 has come in for a huge amount of 109 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:10,110 criticism I refer to report such as the 110 00:06:16,970 --> 00:06:13,050 one by Cigna Dean writing for the SBS 111 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:16,980 website expert audience slam ABC's 112 00:06:23,030 --> 00:06:21,480 catalyst report on Wi-Fi danger science 113 00:06:25,790 --> 00:06:23,040 and health experts are slamming the 114 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:25,800 latest episode of ABC's catalyst on the 115 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:27,450 potential health dangers of wireless 116 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:30,330 devices calling it scare mongering and 117 00:06:35,420 --> 00:06:33,450 incorrect very good and thorough report 118 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:35,430 by Cigna Dean and I'll link to that in 119 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:38,160 the show notes other outlets chiming in 120 00:06:43,430 --> 00:06:39,720 with criticism include the sydney 121 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:43,440 morning herald the conversation and the 122 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:46,110 australian skeptics now later on I'll 123 00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:49,080 read the bent spoon nomination for 124 00:06:53,870 --> 00:06:52,020 catalyst by Australian skeptics but 125 00:06:56,270 --> 00:06:53,880 right now what I'm going to do is run a 126 00:06:59,210 --> 00:06:56,280 report from our good friends at the 127 00:07:01,340 --> 00:06:59,220 Royal Institution of Australia and 128 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:01,350 immediately following that report I'll 129 00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:05,250 read out the bent spoon nomination from 130 00:07:15,220 --> 00:07:10,840 now those wonderful people at the Royal 131 00:07:19,630 --> 00:07:15,230 Institution of Australia www r-ia us ova 132 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:19,640 you have a new initiative a new 133 00:07:23,230 --> 00:07:21,410 initiative when you say that yes I 134 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:23,240 suppose you can look out it's 135 00:07:33,130 --> 00:07:28,370 Australia's science channel go to www RI 136 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:33,140 a u.s. TV now there's a host of videos 137 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:35,180 up there already but the one we're 138 00:07:40,090 --> 00:07:36,860 playing you today is in line with our 139 00:07:43,090 --> 00:07:40,100 current story about the catalyst Wi-Fi 140 00:07:47,050 --> 00:07:43,100 program in response to the ABC catalyst 141 00:07:49,210 --> 00:07:47,060 airing why fried are ayahs spoke to 142 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:49,220 Professor Rodney Croft from the 143 00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:51,050 University of Wollongong who is an 144 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:53,990 expert on electromagnetic effects and 145 00:07:59,200 --> 00:07:56,690 human health to seek the truth about 146 00:08:02,170 --> 00:07:59,210 this myth and now from the Royal 147 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:02,180 Institution of Australia it's Ben and 148 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:06,020 Kasey so we're pretty sick seeing our 149 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:08,180 feed spam today about the dangers of 150 00:08:12,550 --> 00:08:10,700 Wi-Fi yeah this week's episode of 151 00:08:14,530 --> 00:08:12,560 catalyst was the one to launch a million 152 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:14,540 I rolls around our office when in fact 153 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:16,790 this issue breaks down pretty simply 154 00:08:21,190 --> 00:08:18,980 yeah at its core there's actually no 155 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:21,200 evidence which shows any link between 156 00:08:26,770 --> 00:08:24,410 our Wi-Fi and mobile phones and serious 157 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:26,780 ill effects on our health there's really 158 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:29,390 no evidence at all that there's a link 159 00:08:34,810 --> 00:08:32,090 between Wi-Fi use and health there's 160 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:34,820 been a lot of research conductors but 161 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:38,030 it's a very low power level and we just 162 00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:40,280 can't find any link with health in 163 00:08:45,550 --> 00:08:42,680 general we've got very flat rates of 164 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:45,560 brain cancers for instance so we do see 165 00:08:49,870 --> 00:08:47,450 little changes but they're not actually 166 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:49,880 related to mobile phones what we find 167 00:08:53,770 --> 00:08:52,010 for instance with rats is that they 168 00:08:55,690 --> 00:08:53,780 change their eating behaviour very 169 00:08:59,170 --> 00:08:55,700 slightly they become a little bit less 170 00:09:02,590 --> 00:08:59,180 hungry so that's the threshold that we 171 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:02,600 refer to as a health effect now in terms 172 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:05,570 of Wi-Fi what we're talking about is a 173 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:09,190 level about five to five thousand to 174 00:09:15,970 --> 00:09:12,110 50,000 times lower than that so 175 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:15,980 extremely extremely small levels that we 176 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:18,860 would find very hard to actually detect 177 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:21,740 in terms of a biological change 178 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:24,710 radiation like this changes temperature 179 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:27,050 and that's how it can have an influence 180 00:09:32,350 --> 00:09:29,750 at very high levels but at the kind of 181 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:32,360 level we get from a Wi-Fi for instance 182 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:35,270 we'd find it very hard to actually see 183 00:09:39,790 --> 00:09:37,190 any temperature change in the body at 184 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:39,800 all and our body is very used to dealing 185 00:09:44,170 --> 00:09:42,170 with quite large temperature changes and 186 00:09:46,030 --> 00:09:44,180 any claims that kids are more 187 00:09:47,830 --> 00:09:46,040 susceptible than adults well we just 188 00:09:51,370 --> 00:09:47,840 can't prove that there are slight 189 00:09:53,830 --> 00:09:51,380 changes in how small people versus 190 00:09:56,980 --> 00:09:53,840 larger people absorb the energy from 191 00:09:59,080 --> 00:09:56,990 Wi-Fi or mobile phones but these don't 192 00:10:02,650 --> 00:09:59,090 correspond to anything to do with health 193 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:02,660 so you can get slightly larger exposures 194 00:10:08,350 --> 00:10:05,210 but on the other hand a smaller person 195 00:10:10,810 --> 00:10:08,360 will also give off more heat and produce 196 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:10,820 a compensatory effect that means the net 197 00:10:16,750 --> 00:10:14,090 result is no change so an adult and a 198 00:10:19,270 --> 00:10:16,760 child as far as science has been able to 199 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:19,280 determine are identical in terms of the 200 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:21,410 effect of radiation from mobile phones 201 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:24,170 and Wi-Fi there's just no evidence that 202 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:25,970 making a call on your mobile phone or 203 00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:27,650 hooking up to your Wi-Fi will mean that 204 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:29,600 you get cancer now this whole episode 205 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:31,970 was just about playing up to the fears 206 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:35,090 of your parents some people expect 207 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:38,300 science to be able to give us a hundred 208 00:10:44,140 --> 00:10:41,510 percent secure answer that something is 209 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:44,150 safe and they'd like to see that before 210 00:10:50,380 --> 00:10:47,210 they're willing to have sort of society 211 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:50,390 use a product a food and a mission 212 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:53,150 whatever it may be but science can't do 213 00:10:57,130 --> 00:10:55,580 that science can never ever show that 214 00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,140 something is a hundred percent safe 215 00:11:02,470 --> 00:10:59,680 doesn't matter if its water orange juice 216 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:02,480 Wi-Fi or a mobile phone it just can't 217 00:11:07,630 --> 00:11:04,550 show that so really it's a matter of 218 00:11:09,130 --> 00:11:07,640 looking to try to find harm and that's 219 00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:09,140 what the research has really been doing 220 00:11:14,860 --> 00:11:11,120 there's been a huge amount of research 221 00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:14,870 out there trying to find harm and at the 222 00:11:19,660 --> 00:11:17,360 moment we can't find any you can never 223 00:11:21,820 --> 00:11:19,670 been 100% sure about things like this 224 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:21,830 since those fuzzy edges which people 225 00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:24,620 exploit fear mongering the episode ended 226 00:11:29,710 --> 00:11:26,360 with the guest asking do we really want 227 00:11:31,690 --> 00:11:29,720 to see proof yes yes we do we really 228 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:31,700 want to see proof we really want to see 229 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:33,890 evidence that's how we want to make our 230 00:11:36,699 --> 00:11:34,850 decisions 231 00:11:39,249 --> 00:11:36,709 and I find it a bit irresponsible to 232 00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:39,259 enter the entire episode this way and 233 00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:41,420 I'm kind of just as disappointed in the 234 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:43,430 journalism as I am in the standards of 235 00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,410 science that we saw I think we should 236 00:12:01,809 --> 00:11:47,600 all expect more from a report on 237 00:12:08,029 --> 00:12:05,539 bent spoon nomination for ABC catalyst 238 00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:08,039 by Tim mendon published on the 239 00:12:18,139 --> 00:12:11,519 Australian skeptics website at wwc 240 00:12:20,479 --> 00:12:18,149 optics com au februari 19th 2016 ABC TV 241 00:12:22,819 --> 00:12:20,489 science program catalyst and one of its 242 00:12:25,159 --> 00:12:22,829 chief science reporters dr. Mary and 243 00:12:27,289 --> 00:12:25,169 Maisy have been nominated for the 244 00:12:29,869 --> 00:12:27,299 Australian skeptics bent spoon award a 245 00:12:33,889 --> 00:12:29,879 report by dr. Mary and amazed he titled 246 00:12:36,969 --> 00:12:33,899 why fried and broadcast on februari 16 247 00:12:39,319 --> 00:12:36,979 looked at be supposed health dangers of 248 00:12:43,849 --> 00:12:39,329 Wi-Fi connections for smartphones 249 00:12:46,429 --> 00:12:43,859 laptops tablets etc the program and dr. 250 00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:46,439 Demasi have been criticized before for 251 00:12:53,149 --> 00:12:48,720 promoting unsubstantiated scientific 252 00:12:55,519 --> 00:12:53,159 evidence of dangerous products in 2014 253 00:12:58,249 --> 00:12:55,529 dr. demacian catalyst presented a case 254 00:13:00,879 --> 00:12:58,259 against statins in cholesterol control 255 00:13:03,979 --> 00:13:00,889 the program was criticized for using 256 00:13:06,469 --> 00:13:03,989 experts with vested interests in 257 00:13:09,109 --> 00:13:06,479 promoting alternative medicine to put 258 00:13:11,239 --> 00:13:09,119 the anti statin case and pitching the 259 00:13:14,869 --> 00:13:11,249 proponents of established evidence-based 260 00:13:16,999 --> 00:13:14,879 medicine into a minor role this time the 261 00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:17,009 same process has been used to alert 262 00:13:23,389 --> 00:13:19,529 people to the dangers of sticking 263 00:13:26,089 --> 00:13:23,399 smartphones to their ears it uses six 264 00:13:28,789 --> 00:13:26,099 experts at least one without any 265 00:13:31,460 --> 00:13:28,799 attribution to put the case for the 266 00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:31,470 supposed dangers and only one scientist 267 00:13:34,969 --> 00:13:32,639 who pointed to the lack of any 268 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:34,979 scientific evidence that supports the 269 00:13:38,839 --> 00:13:37,169 danger claims even that science was 270 00:13:40,789 --> 00:13:38,849 encouraged to state that science was 271 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:40,799 never one hundred percent sure of 272 00:13:46,129 --> 00:13:43,169 something which in the program's point 273 00:13:47,749 --> 00:13:46,139 of view equated to quote you can't 274 00:13:49,999 --> 00:13:47,759 therefore say it's one hundred percent 275 00:13:51,979 --> 00:13:50,009 safe and therefore it must be dangerous 276 00:13:54,229 --> 00:13:51,989 end quote in response to the criticism 277 00:13:57,859 --> 00:13:54,239 catalyst responded on its Facebook page 278 00:14:00,439 --> 00:13:57,869 that quote the program and its producers 279 00:14:02,809 --> 00:14:00,449 recognized there's a debate understand 280 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:02,819 that the science is not settled and that 281 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:06,569 it is an issue of public concern that's 282 00:14:11,719 --> 00:14:08,850 why the catalyst program spoke to those 283 00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:11,729 who consider the increased risk to be 284 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:12,790 significant 285 00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:15,130 and concerning and to others who do not 286 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:17,860 consider it to be significant including 287 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:20,620 extensive quotes from a spokesman for 288 00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:26,650 the ARP ans a and the industry body AMTA 289 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:29,680 the program also included the views of a 290 00:14:35,580 --> 00:14:32,770 prominent brain surgeon Charlie Teo and 291 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:35,590 prominent cancer expert Professor Bruce 292 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:38,290 Armstrong it is also important to note 293 00:14:43,140 --> 00:14:40,150 that at least two of the current critics 294 00:14:45,810 --> 00:14:43,150 of the program doctors Bernhard Stuart 295 00:14:47,820 --> 00:14:45,820 and Simon Chapman were invited to 296 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:47,830 participate in the program but declined 297 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:50,590 and they agreed to be interviewed their 298 00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:52,510 views would have been included as well 299 00:14:57,330 --> 00:14:55,120 end quote perhaps because of the claim 300 00:14:59,670 --> 00:14:57,340 that quote the science is not settled 301 00:15:02,070 --> 00:14:59,680 and quote the catalyst story allowed 302 00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:02,080 many unsubstantiated statements that 303 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:04,270 ignored scientific evidence to be made 304 00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:07,260 and some of those statements were wrong 305 00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:10,420 dr. Sara Loren of the University of 306 00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:13,960 Wollongong a researcher at the nhr mcs 307 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:16,560 center for research excellence in 308 00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:18,850 electromagnetic energy as well as a 309 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:21,280 member of the wh 0 environmental health 310 00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,340 criterion evaluation committee on radio 311 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:27,760 frequency fields said that quote many 312 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:29,710 claims were made without providing any 313 00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:32,050 substantiated science to support what 314 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:34,540 was essentially individual and selective 315 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:36,760 opinions that were used to paint an 316 00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:38,980 incorrect picture of the current state 317 00:15:43,890 --> 00:15:41,500 of knowledge indeed there is currently 318 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:43,900 no scientific evidence that exposure to 319 00:15:49,050 --> 00:15:46,420 low-level radio frequency such as 320 00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:49,060 emitted by mobile phones and Wi-Fi has 321 00:15:53,790 --> 00:15:51,580 an impact on health by not providing a 322 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:53,800 balanced view on the science catalyst 323 00:15:57,690 --> 00:15:55,180 has left viewers with misleading 324 00:16:00,840 --> 00:15:57,700 messages regarding the use of such 325 00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:00,850 devices which may serve to perpetuate 326 00:16:06,210 --> 00:16:03,280 fear related to a health risk that 327 00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,220 currently does not exist unquote dr. 328 00:16:10,950 --> 00:16:08,800 devra Davis an American epidemiologist 329 00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:10,960 and writer who was featured prominently 330 00:16:15,210 --> 00:16:13,180 in the program countered the lack of 331 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:15,220 scientific evidence for brain damage 332 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:18,010 from Wi-Fi radiation by saying it was 333 00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:21,010 too early to see any rise in brain 334 00:16:26,309 --> 00:16:24,160 cancer caused by mobile phones or Wi-Fi 335 00:16:28,769 --> 00:16:26,319 and argued that brain cancers after the 336 00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:28,779 Japanese atomic bombs did not appear for 337 00:16:35,579 --> 00:16:31,839 40 years quote that's simply incorrect 338 00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:35,589 in quote said dr. Simon Chapman emeritus 339 00:16:39,869 --> 00:16:37,180 professor in public health at the 340 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:39,879 University of Sydney he cited a study 341 00:16:44,759 --> 00:16:42,490 published by the american cancer society 342 00:16:47,550 --> 00:16:44,769 that reported on central nervous system 343 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:47,560 cancers including brain cancers in those 344 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:49,660 exposed to atomic bomb radiation in 345 00:16:53,579 --> 00:16:51,970 Japan which found that more than fifty 346 00:16:56,369 --> 00:16:53,589 eight percent of those studied were 347 00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:56,379 diagnosed in the first forty years and 348 00:17:02,569 --> 00:16:59,410 some much earlier quote there is no 349 00:17:05,819 --> 00:17:02,579 evidence of any increase in the rate per 350 00:17:08,909 --> 00:17:05,829 100,000 population of brain cancer in 351 00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:08,919 any age group in Australia from 1982 to 352 00:17:13,529 --> 00:17:11,199 the present other than for the very 353 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:13,539 oldest age group where the increased 354 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:15,490 started well before mobile phones were 355 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:18,490 introduced in Australia and so cannot be 356 00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:21,370 explained by mobile phones all cancers 357 00:17:26,399 --> 00:17:23,860 in Australia are notifiable and over 358 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:26,409 eighty-five percent of brain cancer is 359 00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:29,470 historically verified it's just not a 360 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:32,590 doctor's opinion and quote dr. Darren 361 00:17:37,169 --> 00:17:34,809 Saunders is a cancer biologist at the 362 00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:37,179 University of New South Wales and is a 363 00:17:42,149 --> 00:17:39,220 visiting fellow at Big kinghorn Cancer 364 00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,159 Center garvan institute he said that 365 00:17:45,779 --> 00:17:44,080 there were key flaws in the argument 366 00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:45,789 made in the program that stood out 367 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:48,400 significantly one was the lack of any 368 00:17:54,419 --> 00:17:50,980 demonstratable increase in brain cancer 369 00:17:57,260 --> 00:17:54,429 incidents over time quote we have been 370 00:17:59,730 --> 00:17:57,270 exposed to the same kind of non ionizing 371 00:18:01,620 --> 00:17:59,740 electromagnetic radiation long before 372 00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:01,630 mobile phones and Wi-Fi became 373 00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:04,480 commonplace men quote he added that a 374 00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:07,030 second floor was the absence of a 375 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:09,820 plausible biological mechanism for how 376 00:18:15,149 --> 00:18:12,370 this kind of radiation can cause cancer 377 00:18:17,549 --> 00:18:15,159 quote there were very poor analogues 378 00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:17,559 made with microwave ovens and smoking 379 00:18:22,590 --> 00:18:20,080 which are purely emotive and not based 380 00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:22,600 on actual science comparing a microwave 381 00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:24,880 to a mobile phone is like comparing a 382 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:27,340 Saturn 5 rocket to your lawnmower and 383 00:18:33,090 --> 00:18:30,400 quote for a supposed scientific program 384 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:33,100 one sequence in particular was 385 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:35,770 indicative of poor scientific support 386 00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:37,730 for the radiation claims 387 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:40,670 dr. Davis used illustrations to explain 388 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:43,250 the supposed to the extent of radiation 389 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:45,410 damage to the brain but these were 390 00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:48,230 obviously photolibrary shots of a man 391 00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,390 and little girl with colors superimposed 392 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:52,640 on them the program said this showed 393 00:18:57,670 --> 00:18:55,340 thermal imagery of radiation seeping 394 00:18:59,440 --> 00:18:57,680 into the brain but this imagery could 395 00:19:02,110 --> 00:18:59,450 have easily been applied to any object 396 00:19:05,380 --> 00:19:02,120 it was not generated by those particular 397 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:05,390 subjects nonetheless dr. Demasi seemed 398 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:08,510 impressed by the colors the bent spoon 399 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:12,430 nomination says quote for again 400 00:19:17,890 --> 00:19:15,470 presenting a biased sensationalist story 401 00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:17,900 on the scientific topic in this case 402 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:20,180 non-ionizing radiation and the use of 403 00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:22,730 Wi-Fi media the program had six 404 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:25,430 scaremongering experts ranged against 405 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:27,650 one scientist saying that there wasn't 406 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:29,780 any scientific evidence that harm was 407 00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:32,810 being caused it confused the proper and 408 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:35,420 normal scientific restraint of saying we 409 00:19:39,010 --> 00:19:36,890 can't be absolutely sure of something 410 00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:39,020 with admitting that something is 411 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:42,080 dangerous poor science bad journalism 412 00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:44,930 overly alarmist and even the title of 413 00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:48,560 the story wife ride was sensationalized 414 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:51,980 move / Daily Mail here comes catalyst 415 00:20:04,450 --> 00:19:55,130 and that was by Tim mendham as reported 416 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:04,460 at ww skeptics com a you so there you 417 00:20:10,570 --> 00:20:06,890 are a little round up of this week's hot 418 00:20:12,130 --> 00:20:10,580 topic why fried from the catalyst 419 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:12,140 program and I think one of the reasons 420 00:20:18,670 --> 00:20:15,290 so many people are so disappointed is 421 00:20:22,270 --> 00:20:18,680 because that well basically we simply 422 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:22,280 expect better from the ABC and the 423 00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:23,710 catalyst program 424 00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:26,740 for the links mentioned visit www.a pegs 425 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:30,159 on TV and it's worth mentioning that the 426 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:37,210 patched people p8 TCH apostrophe D who 427 00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:39,940 are marketing a little device you put on 428 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:41,679 your cell phone to protect you from the 429 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:45,250 evil radiation jumped in early when they 430 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:47,049 saw the catalyst program was coming up 431 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:49,210 and if you go to their Facebook page 432 00:21:13,720 --> 00:20:54,250 you'll see certain comments by a certain 433 00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:17,810 dr. Harriet hall md no into thousands as 434 00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:20,880 the skeptic a retired family physician 435 00:21:26,029 --> 00:21:24,000 and former Air Force flight surgeon she 436 00:21:27,730 --> 00:21:26,039 writes about medicine so called 437 00:21:31,630 --> 00:21:27,740 complementary and alternative medicine 438 00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:31,640 science banchory and critical thinking 439 00:21:37,159 --> 00:21:34,710 Harriet now has a free course a series 440 00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:37,169 of ten video lectures on science based 441 00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:40,320 medicine and alternative medicine the 442 00:21:44,450 --> 00:21:42,360 videos and an accompanying course guide 443 00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:44,460 can be found by following the link at 444 00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:49,320 skip dot info or by visiting web Randy's 445 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:53,870 org slash educational dash modules dot 446 00:21:59,899 --> 00:21:57,650 HTML topics covered in the series are 447 00:22:03,010 --> 00:21:59,909 science-based medicine vs. 448 00:22:06,430 --> 00:22:03,020 evidence-based medicine what is cam 449 00:22:09,620 --> 00:22:06,440 chiropractic acupuncture homeopathy 450 00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:09,630 naturopathy and herbal medicine energy 451 00:22:14,930 --> 00:22:11,760 medicine miscellaneous alternatives 452 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:14,940 pitfalls in research and science-based 453 00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:18,200 medicine in the media and politics 454 00:22:23,539 --> 00:22:21,000 Harriet covers each topic in a matter of 455 00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:23,549 fact no-nonsense way that sure to 456 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:50,380 and now here's a clip from the 457 00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:53,090 Merseyside skeptics well I should say 458 00:22:57,670 --> 00:22:55,670 it's from BBC merseyside they 459 00:22:59,140 --> 00:22:57,680 interviewed Michael Marshall from the 460 00:23:02,410 --> 00:22:59,150 Merseyside skeptics and the good 461 00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:02,420 thinking society as well as dr. hugh 462 00:23:08,590 --> 00:23:05,300 nielsen a medical doctor who also 463 00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:08,600 practices homeopathy don't forget to 464 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:11,560 visit good thinking society org or 465 00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,930 merseyside skeptics or but UK for more 466 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:16,640 information about Michael Marshall and 467 00:23:21,730 --> 00:23:18,770 the group's he's involved with now I 468 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:21,740 have a closed listen to the reasoning 469 00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:25,370 but dr. hugh nielsen presents in this 470 00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:29,660 interview change your takia health buses 471 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:31,880 in liverpool and merle a considering 472 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:33,530 stopping spending money on homeopathy 473 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:36,290 currently we're all spend about 31,000 474 00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:38,110 pounds on it liverpool roughly the same 475 00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:40,670 totally in terms of the NHS budget it 476 00:23:44,530 --> 00:23:41,960 amounts to naught point naught naught 477 00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:44,540 four percent of the entire budget but 478 00:23:47,410 --> 00:23:45,710 some people think we shouldn't even be 479 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:47,420 spending that not least a group called 480 00:23:50,890 --> 00:23:49,070 the Merseyside skeptics and we'll hear 481 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:50,900 from Mike Marshall from them in a moment 482 00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:53,390 but first dr. Hugh Nielsen now he's a GP 483 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:54,920 in Liverpool and as well as using 484 00:23:58,690 --> 00:23:56,510 conventional medicine he practices 485 00:24:00,670 --> 00:23:58,700 homeopathy one day a week at a clinic in 486 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:00,680 old swamp he told me this room for both 487 00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:02,930 in the NHS yeah I use both you know most 488 00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:04,790 of my professional life is spent using 489 00:24:09,670 --> 00:24:07,580 conventional medicine probably eight 490 00:24:11,980 --> 00:24:09,680 eighty percent most of the time four 491 00:24:13,870 --> 00:24:11,990 days a week am a GP and the one day a 492 00:24:16,810 --> 00:24:13,880 week on a monday i practice homeopathy 493 00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:16,820 and I practice a bit of homeopathy in my 494 00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:20,720 normal everyday GP work and can I ask 495 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:22,400 you why you believe homeopathy has a 496 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:25,370 place in the NHS well because I think 497 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:27,890 it's been around for 200 years and I 498 00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:29,060 think there's a reasonable amount of 499 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:30,790 evidence that shows that it works and 500 00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:34,010 it's in my experience for certain 501 00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:36,080 conditions which works very well it's 502 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:37,760 very safe and it's got very few side 503 00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:39,980 effects and it can be very effective the 504 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:41,540 big controversy is that we don't know 505 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:43,490 how it works and some of the remedies 506 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:45,170 that we use are so diluted 507 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:47,450 there is no none of the original 508 00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:49,370 substance present yes I was just water 509 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:51,830 is it it's just water in the chemical 510 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:54,170 sense but it's not just water in the 511 00:24:58,270 --> 00:24:55,850 physical sense I mean there have been a 512 00:25:00,790 --> 00:24:58,280 few quite a few studies looking at the 513 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:00,800 properties of these ultra dilute 514 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:02,570 solutions that we call them and they 515 00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:04,130 appear to they have different physical 516 00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:06,260 properties from pure water but it's 517 00:25:09,310 --> 00:25:07,520 chemically the same as Walt I mean 518 00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:09,320 what's the difference between a chemical 519 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:11,270 analysis and as you're saying a physical 520 00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:13,370 analysis surely the chemistry is the 521 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:15,920 physical is it no the chemistry is the 522 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:17,780 actual molecules that are there or are 523 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:19,970 not there the visit the physical things 524 00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:21,710 as the actual properties there is some 525 00:25:28,210 --> 00:25:24,680 sort of energy in this remedy right 526 00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:28,220 those has an effect on cells and on 527 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:30,590 human bodies and an animal's when you 528 00:25:33,130 --> 00:25:31,910 talk about energy there that's the kind 529 00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:33,140 of thing that people who maybe practice 530 00:25:38,620 --> 00:25:35,150 Reiki say isn't it I mean you might as 531 00:25:40,030 --> 00:25:38,630 well lay on hands in that sense no it's 532 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:40,040 a different and it's a completely 533 00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:41,510 different system from Reiki I don't know 534 00:25:46,060 --> 00:25:43,640 much about Reiki r21 I just but they 535 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:46,070 talk about energy don't they yes they do 536 00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:48,890 talk about energy but the you know it I 537 00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:52,220 can't explain how it works you know but 538 00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:53,660 I'm just saying that there is evidence 539 00:25:57,370 --> 00:25:55,310 that these ultra dilute solutions have 540 00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:57,380 some sort of effect isn't it just blew 541 00:26:01,390 --> 00:25:59,360 see back then if there isn't any medical 542 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:01,400 or chemistry involved isn't it just 543 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:02,810 placebo and I'm not saying that that's 544 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:04,730 not effective because placebo is very 545 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:06,530 powerful sometimes but you might as well 546 00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:08,930 give them a sugar pill well I mean 547 00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:11,230 there's been over a hundred trials in 548 00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:13,550 homeopathy have been lots of trials and 549 00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:16,400 the the balance shows that it is more 550 00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:18,860 than placebo and do you think that I 551 00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:20,960 mean you you devote one day of Europe 552 00:26:25,450 --> 00:26:23,480 your NHS work or one day of your working 553 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:25,460 week to this clearly that's a day when 554 00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:26,930 perhaps you could be applying 555 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:28,550 conventional medicine on the NHS to 556 00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:31,970 people I could but there's over 250 557 00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:33,740 excellent GPS in Liverpool doing that 558 00:26:39,070 --> 00:26:36,380 and there's only me practicing 559 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:39,080 homeopathy and as I said I see people 560 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:40,970 that have tried conveying everything in 561 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:42,290 conventional medicine and it hasn't 562 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:44,510 worked right so I think from that point 563 00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:46,610 of view it's a valuable service you know 564 00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:48,830 and I'm not one might argue well you 565 00:26:51,850 --> 00:26:50,420 know the conventional medicine that 566 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:51,860 they've got isn't up to scratch that is 567 00:26:55,870 --> 00:26:54,170 not the case you know the GPS in 568 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:55,880 Liverpool and world are on the whole 569 00:26:58,909 --> 00:26:56,730 excellent 570 00:27:00,320 --> 00:26:58,919 and they're not sending me patience but 571 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:00,330 they've missed something they have they 572 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:01,710 haven't diagnosed something that I 573 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:03,090 haven't tried the right treatment yeah 574 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:04,890 believe me every single patient that I 575 00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:07,650 see in either st. Catharines or Old Swan 576 00:27:12,159 --> 00:27:10,590 has had the an excellent work up from 577 00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:12,169 the conventional point of view and 578 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:14,760 sometimes it just doesn't work so that 579 00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:16,650 that's where I think homeopathy comes in 580 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:17,760 and in a way you've preempted my next 581 00:27:21,169 --> 00:27:19,290 question which was that the NHS spends 582 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:21,179 four million quid a year on homeopathy 583 00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:23,520 and there are those who say that you 584 00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:25,679 know when nicer withholding expensive 585 00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:27,000 treatments for cancer that do work 586 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,710 because of financial restrictions we 587 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:30,000 shouldn't be spending a penny on this 588 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:32,490 stuff well I would disagree that Eric 589 00:27:36,530 --> 00:27:34,650 doesn't work and you know four million 590 00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:36,540 and in addition that's the whole of the 591 00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:39,270 NHS in the UK Liverpool spends 592 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:43,049 twenty-nine thousand pounds a year which 593 00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:44,970 is point zero zero four percent of their 594 00:27:49,789 --> 00:27:47,220 budget it's a drop in the ocean you know 595 00:27:51,169 --> 00:27:49,799 it is a tiny amount and the NHS drug 596 00:27:52,370 --> 00:27:51,179 budgets I don't know what it is but it's 597 00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:52,380 a hell of a lot more than four million 598 00:27:57,530 --> 00:27:54,270 you know attaching a teacher you might 599 00:27:59,870 --> 00:27:57,540 call it yes old for dilute amount yes 600 00:28:02,180 --> 00:27:59,880 okay and I think we provide a valuable 601 00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:02,190 service and yes you know there is always 602 00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:04,140 going to be shortages for cancer 603 00:28:08,930 --> 00:28:07,080 treatment but we are looking at people 604 00:28:11,390 --> 00:28:08,940 who are tried everything conventional 605 00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,400 medicine and this is a safe and very 606 00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:13,440 very cheap and can be effective 607 00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:15,150 treatment for this group of people 608 00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:16,980 really interesting you thanks a lot for 609 00:28:21,530 --> 00:28:18,600 talking on the show today preacher very 610 00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:21,540 oprah's retailers dr. hugh nielsen let's 611 00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:23,940 also speak to mike marshall here is from 612 00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:27,150 the Merseyside skeptics society and they 613 00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:28,590 have their doubts about this hello to 614 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:31,200 you Mike hi hi just listening as you 615 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:33,720 were there if people want this stuff why 616 00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:35,730 shouldn't the NHS pay for it well the 617 00:28:39,770 --> 00:28:38,160 simple fact is it doesn't work it's very 618 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:39,780 easy to say that there are studies here 619 00:28:42,409 --> 00:28:40,860 there are studies there but actually 620 00:28:44,060 --> 00:28:42,419 when you look at the quality of the 621 00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:44,070 studies the best quality studies showed 622 00:28:48,380 --> 00:28:45,600 there is absolutely no effect in the 623 00:28:49,789 --> 00:28:48,390 homeopathy and this is a case that there 624 00:28:50,990 --> 00:28:49,799 might be one or two doctors here and 625 00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:51,000 there might suggest that it does work 626 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:53,190 but the overwhelming majority of doctors 627 00:28:57,830 --> 00:28:55,049 say it will fade to the work in a one in 628 00:28:59,360 --> 00:28:57,840 a thousand might say it works 999 would 629 00:29:01,820 --> 00:28:59,370 completely disagree in medical 630 00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:01,830 establishment the consensus absolutely 631 00:29:06,289 --> 00:29:03,150 is clear at this point that homeopathy 632 00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:06,299 is nothing ineffective sugar pills for 633 00:29:09,950 --> 00:29:09,179 siebel pills you might say the very best 634 00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:09,960 most credible 635 00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:12,000 expert body's completely agrees British 636 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:13,350 Medical Association the royal 637 00:29:17,019 --> 00:29:15,450 pharmaceutical society the House of 638 00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:17,029 Commons signed Technology Committee 639 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:19,230 every single one of these bodies have 640 00:29:23,330 --> 00:29:21,090 looked at the evidence said this doesn't 641 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:23,340 work we shouldn't be wasting 45 million 642 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:24,690 pounds ago on this well if it's that 643 00:29:27,529 --> 00:29:26,010 money could go to pee if it's appeared 644 00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:27,539 in scientific journals that have been 645 00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:29,039 peer-reviewed then it must be some 646 00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:30,950 backing to it when you look at the 647 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:33,990 studies that that suggests that it works 648 00:29:38,419 --> 00:29:36,090 i mean i think dr. tanios inside of one 649 00:29:41,149 --> 00:29:38,429 from 2014 the actual conclusions of 650 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:41,159 study he's citing said this doesn't show 651 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,690 that there's a very strong effect it 652 00:29:46,130 --> 00:29:44,820 says we need to examine this more 653 00:29:48,769 --> 00:29:46,140 evidence is needed because this isn't 654 00:29:50,779 --> 00:29:48,779 conclusive the very best studies the 655 00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:50,789 ones that are though with double-blind 656 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:52,470 they don't tell anybody whether they're 657 00:29:56,779 --> 00:29:55,230 getting the homeopathy with feeble those 658 00:29:59,060 --> 00:29:56,789 are the studies that show no effect at 659 00:30:00,680 --> 00:29:59,070 all once you start removing the blinding 660 00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:00,690 and doing studies I don't have quite as 661 00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,760 many people in aren't quite as well 662 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:04,799 conducted you start to see artifacts 663 00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,450 appearing as if this works but that's 664 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:07,919 why we do studies in the best way 665 00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:10,350 possible but simply isn't ever and any 666 00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,880 evidence right now that this works at 667 00:30:15,740 --> 00:30:14,100 all but what about those who say well it 668 00:30:17,769 --> 00:30:15,750 worked for me and there will be those 669 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:17,779 who say that I mean not everybody has 670 00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:20,850 absolute faith in science or at least 671 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:22,200 they believe that there might be other 672 00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:23,730 things than science that might be at 673 00:30:27,139 --> 00:30:25,260 play and we don't know everything and we 674 00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:27,149 can't we can't claim to can we well 675 00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:28,320 absolutely we don't know everything but 676 00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:30,270 the best where we have of finding things 677 00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:32,220 out is by doing a proper study on it I 678 00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,960 mean they can have an individual person 679 00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:35,760 will really feel that it worked for them 680 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:37,950 but how do they know that they weren't 681 00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:39,330 going to get better anyway or that it 682 00:30:41,899 --> 00:30:40,380 wasn't something else that they were 683 00:30:43,340 --> 00:30:41,909 doing and that's really what a study is 684 00:30:45,769 --> 00:30:43,350 that's really what science is it's not 685 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:45,779 something magical it's not something 686 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:47,850 where that scientists get in a room and 687 00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:49,529 decide what's true it's just our way of 688 00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:51,240 finding out right what is true and what 689 00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:53,190 isn't but that you know he said there 690 00:30:58,220 --> 00:30:55,529 didn't see that he mainly practices this 691 00:31:00,139 --> 00:30:58,230 where the science and the conventional 692 00:31:01,789 --> 00:31:00,149 medicine has failed so it's not like you 693 00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:01,799 would be going this is wouldn't be 694 00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:03,360 first-line treatment with it this would 695 00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:04,559 be something you try after conventional 696 00:31:08,090 --> 00:31:06,630 medicine have failed and maybe it was 697 00:31:10,639 --> 00:31:08,100 the last chance saloon just might work 698 00:31:12,110 --> 00:31:10,649 it's worth a try isn't it well it's very 699 00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:12,120 easy to say that but unfortunately I 700 00:31:15,529 --> 00:31:13,350 said this is money that's coming out of 701 00:31:17,659 --> 00:31:15,539 the public purse it's five million 702 00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:17,669 pounds ago and it's very easy so there's 703 00:31:21,019 --> 00:31:19,470 a very small amount of money from the 704 00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:21,029 NHS naught point naught naught four 705 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:22,950 percent but I mean I don't want to be 706 00:31:26,330 --> 00:31:23,490 the one who 707 00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:26,340 looks at somebody who has had their 708 00:31:29,810 --> 00:31:28,200 their treatment denied because of 709 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:29,820 funding reasons and say well it's okay 710 00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:31,380 we're only wasting a small about I mean 711 00:31:34,190 --> 00:31:32,400 yes this could have funded your 712 00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,200 treatment instead we're spending on 713 00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:36,720 things we know at this point do not work 714 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:39,059 I think any amount of money spent on 715 00:31:42,650 --> 00:31:40,710 treatments that can be sure not to work 716 00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:42,660 should be something we should be very 717 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:44,070 concerned about so we should spend that 718 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:45,090 money in places where they can 719 00:32:02,480 --> 00:31:56,850 legitimately help people on Manor calm 720 00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:07,110 episode 21 with Tim Ferguson 721 00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:16,500 ring the bell do the thing Tim 722 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:18,670 Ferguson's write a reply to something 723 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:19,930 that Nam on the know and asked in the 724 00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:24,010 first place don't expect what are you 725 00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:26,140 wondering what do I think it's very 726 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:29,230 simple you've got to engage with the 727 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:31,450 Murdoch press if you're not sure about 728 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:35,230 your political stance read any opinion 729 00:32:40,590 --> 00:32:38,290 page in any of the Murdoch periodicals 730 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:40,600 Miranda devons that one marrano divine 731 00:32:44,940 --> 00:32:43,180 she's always of interest anything in the 732 00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:44,950 australian janet all bricks in a very 733 00:32:50,610 --> 00:32:48,220 cogent writer and also Henry Ergas who's 734 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:50,620 writtens on these vets that's so funny 735 00:32:54,660 --> 00:32:52,630 this morning but you've got to have a 736 00:32:58,020 --> 00:32:54,670 look at this stuff you have to watch fox 737 00:32:59,910 --> 00:32:58,030 news you have to embrace this stuff 738 00:33:02,190 --> 00:32:59,920 because where's this going to get us if 739 00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,200 we do this well then you will know that 740 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:04,720 whatever they're saying you don't agree 741 00:33:09,030 --> 00:33:06,850 with because you are rational your 742 00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:09,040 artistic your creative your thoughtful 743 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:11,680 you care about other people so if you're 744 00:33:18,180 --> 00:33:14,530 not at all sure what you truly believe 745 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:18,190 tune into Murdoch newscom has the 746 00:33:23,370 --> 00:33:20,980 opposite of what you are that's Tim 747 00:33:26,910 --> 00:33:23,380 Ferguson's write a reply straight from 748 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:26,920 the mouth bunga bunga or as we like to 749 00:33:55,580 --> 00:33:48,280 what we want is some more evidence 750 00:33:55,590 --> 00:34:02,029 hello this is Joe alabaster 751 00:34:11,819 --> 00:34:08,419 posted februari 18th 2016 on ABC net au 752 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:11,829 low vaccination rates caused by parental 753 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:16,210 suspicion says researcher a researcher 754 00:34:21,329 --> 00:34:18,490 from the university of sydney says 755 00:34:23,609 --> 00:34:21,339 suspicion rather than neglect is behind 756 00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:23,619 low vaccination rates on the new south 757 00:34:29,129 --> 00:34:27,369 wales north coast a recent National 758 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:29,139 Health performance Authority report 759 00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:32,050 showed less than forty seven percent of 760 00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:33,760 five-year-olds living in the Mollom 761 00:34:39,059 --> 00:34:35,560 Bimby area of the Shire were fully 762 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:39,069 immunized the rate was fifty percent for 763 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:41,500 two-year-olds and less than fifty four 764 00:34:46,889 --> 00:34:43,690 percent for one year old children in the 765 00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:46,899 postcode the Australian chief medical 766 00:34:51,839 --> 00:34:49,359 officer and all state and territory 767 00:34:54,329 --> 00:34:51,849 chief health officers agreed to a target 768 00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:54,339 of ninety-five percent of children to be 769 00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:59,050 fully immunized PhD candidate Katherine 770 00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:01,359 helps has interviewed parents in the 771 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:03,640 Byron Shire who refused to immunize 772 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:06,490 their children ms help said the 773 00:35:11,059 --> 00:35:08,770 situation in Byron was the result of a 774 00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:11,069 conscious decision making by parents 775 00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:14,230 quote they're very vigilant around the 776 00:35:19,319 --> 00:35:15,940 well-being of their children and what 777 00:35:21,930 --> 00:35:19,329 goes into them end quote she said quote 778 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:21,940 when they look at a product like some of 779 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:24,250 the vaccinations they have concerns 780 00:35:28,650 --> 00:35:26,290 about the product and they also have 781 00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:28,660 concerns about the transparency and the 782 00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:30,160 motivation of the people who are 783 00:35:34,530 --> 00:35:32,140 encouraging them very strongly to have 784 00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:34,540 that done they're not sure that the 785 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:36,520 motivation necessarily comes from the 786 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:39,310 best intentions for their child there is 787 00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:41,530 some concern about there being profit 788 00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:45,700 motive and quote health authorities have 789 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:47,920 warned that low vaccination rates could 790 00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:49,810 leave the region ripe for an outbreak of 791 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:51,790 diseases which have largely been 792 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:55,300 eradicated in Australia dr. Vickie 793 00:35:59,309 --> 00:35:57,130 Shepherd from New South Wales health 794 00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,319 said the deadly respiratory disease 795 00:36:03,930 --> 00:36:01,599 diphtheria was still common in parts of 796 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:03,940 Asia and the Pacific she said people 797 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:05,890 entering Australia from those areas 798 00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:07,930 could carry the bacteria in on their 799 00:36:13,470 --> 00:36:11,470 skin quote it's probably only about five 800 00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:13,480 years ago that happened in Queensland 801 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:14,860 when someone brought the 802 00:36:20,010 --> 00:36:17,410 bug back from overseas and quote dr. 803 00:36:21,630 --> 00:36:20,020 Shepherd said quote they weren't 804 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:21,640 affected themselves because they were 805 00:36:25,980 --> 00:36:24,250 vaccinated but they were in contact with 806 00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:25,990 a young adult who had never been 807 00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:28,000 vaccinated and she died from diphtheria 808 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:33,040 and quote last year the federal 809 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:34,690 government announced that some welfare 810 00:36:39,050 --> 00:36:36,850 benefits would be denied people who 811 00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:39,060 refuse to immunize their children 812 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:42,340 mullumbimby mother Heidi Robertson who 813 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:43,690 helped to form the Northern Rivers 814 00:36:48,690 --> 00:36:46,450 vaccination supporters group in 2013 815 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:48,700 said she was hopeful the policy would 816 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:52,210 eventually pay dividends quote we can 817 00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,130 only go on anecdotes that we've got from 818 00:36:58,260 --> 00:36:56,560 local immunization providers and there 819 00:37:00,120 --> 00:36:58,270 are lots and lots of phone calls coming 820 00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:00,130 in from parents finding out more 821 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:02,380 information about the vaccinations and 822 00:37:07,470 --> 00:37:04,810 placing their kids on to these catch up 823 00:37:11,130 --> 00:37:07,480 schedules and quote she said quote 824 00:37:12,930 --> 00:37:11,140 that's very promising and quote miss 825 00:37:14,730 --> 00:37:12,940 Robertson said friends of hers from 826 00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:14,740 other parts of Australia were reluctant 827 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:16,660 to visit the region which relies heavily 828 00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:20,710 on tourism quote they're absolutely 829 00:37:25,110 --> 00:37:22,630 astounded that less than one in two 830 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:25,120 children are fully vaccinated here they 831 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:27,490 don't understand it and quote she said 832 00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:30,250 quote in fact many of them say they 833 00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:31,750 wouldn't come for a holiday in this 834 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:33,730 region because of that fact alone and 835 00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:38,050 quote the New South Wales opposition's 836 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:40,780 health spokesman Walt's accord said the 837 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:42,460 vaccination rates recorded around 838 00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:44,650 mullumbimby were usually associated with 839 00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:48,190 developing nations quote now that is 840 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:49,840 irresponsible in a country like 841 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:53,290 Australia and quote he said quote people 842 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:55,240 in Africa line up to vaccinate their 843 00:37:59,550 --> 00:37:57,250 children but on the north coast of New 844 00:38:01,460 --> 00:37:59,560 South Wales people are not doing it and 845 00:38:03,650 --> 00:38:01,470 quote 846 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:03,660 the New South Wales Health Minister 847 00:38:19,609 --> 00:38:06,090 Jillian Skinner has so far declined to 848 00:38:25,069 --> 00:38:23,130 hi this is Heidi Robertson from the 849 00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:25,079 Northern Rivers vaccination supporters 850 00:38:30,569 --> 00:38:27,960 we are a group of concerned citizens 851 00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:30,579 dedicated to promoting good science and 852 00:38:36,269 --> 00:38:33,160 common sense in our region the far north 853 00:38:37,980 --> 00:38:36,279 coast of New South Wales this area of 854 00:38:41,009 --> 00:38:37,990 famous for its natural beauty and 855 00:38:44,609 --> 00:38:41,019 relaxed lifestyle also has the lowest 856 00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,619 rates of vaccination in Australia we are 857 00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:46,720 out to change that by challenging the 858 00:38:50,819 --> 00:38:49,150 myths and misinformation and by 859 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:50,829 providing good evidence based 860 00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:54,130 information to the community we'd love 861 00:38:59,609 --> 00:38:55,990 for you no matter where you are in the 862 00:39:07,200 --> 00:38:59,619 world to join our fight please visit our 863 00:39:10,019 --> 00:39:07,210 webpage at ww nrvs info we also have a 864 00:39:14,339 --> 00:39:10,029 link there to our facebook page tweet us 865 00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:14,349 at in our faqs supporters that's vix and 866 00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:16,960 check us out on Wikipedia by searching 867 00:39:30,220 --> 00:39:19,599 for Northern Rivers vaccination 868 00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:36,329 Oh 869 00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:38,950 thank you for listening to the skeptic 870 00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:41,920 zone and thank you to jay alabaster and 871 00:39:46,839 --> 00:39:44,420 Michael Marshall and everybody else who 872 00:39:48,490 --> 00:39:46,849 helped me put this episode together I 873 00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:48,500 think we're going to have to investigate 874 00:39:55,839 --> 00:39:52,220 this science channel from the Royal 875 00:39:57,819 --> 00:39:55,849 Institution of Australia a bit more but 876 00:39:59,710 --> 00:39:57,829 before I go a big thank you to those 877 00:40:02,440 --> 00:39:59,720 people who are helping the skeptics 878 00:40:04,930 --> 00:40:02,450 owned by buying merchandise from mr. 879 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:04,940 Katz origami jewelry there's a link at 880 00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:08,089 skeptic zone TV all those proceeds help 881 00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:12,680 keep the skeptic zone on air but for 882 00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:15,230 this week from a secret location which 883 00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:17,150 is a little bit echoing I must say this 884 00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,900 is Richard Saunders signing off you've 885 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:25,520 been listening to the skeptics own 886 00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,089 podcast visit our website at wwc a 887 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:32,000 petting zoo TV for contacts and archive 888 00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:35,450 of all episodes since 2008 and our 889 00:40:40,049 --> 00:40:38,150 online store please support the skeptic 890 00:40:43,210 --> 00:40:40,059 zone by following us on twitter at 891 00:40:46,839 --> 00:40:43,220 skeptic zone liking us on facebook and 892 00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:46,849 leaving a review on iTunes you can also 893 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:49,040 show your support by subscribing via 894 00:40:54,970 --> 00:40:52,210 paypal for as little as 99 cents a week 895 00:40:56,589 --> 00:40:54,980 the skeptic zone is an independent 896 00:40:59,049 --> 00:40:56,599 production the views and opinions 897 00:41:00,670 --> 00:40:59,059 expressed on the skeptic zone and not 898 00:41:03,549 --> 00:41:00,680 necessarily those of Australian